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Topic: Players -- Please answer this poll  (Read 12299 times)
Reply #15
« on: August 07, 2008, 03:01:20 PM »
Tybae Offline
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Just like Tybae.  Roll Eyes


I know.  Everyone wants to be like me.  Ain't I the greatest?  Wink
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Reply #16
« on: August 08, 2008, 02:03:54 AM »
Axe Murderer Offline
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Just for the record, and since I know many of your are quite experienced builders as well as players, here are some additional details about the death and levelling plans...

Yeah it's NWN1, it will never be NWN2 ever. Player starts at level 0. No there will be no copying of systems seen in other HOF modules or ready-made vault packages whose strengths and weaknesses everybody already know how to exploit. Tho some of the better concepts may be borrowed in part. For instance, all capable henchmen will respawn fallen comrades (PC or NPC). This will not guarantee a fallen PC will be revived  and is one reason why I prefaced question 2 with "and you choose to respawn". I am hoping to make the choice of when to choose the respawn option during a battle when some of your party are still fighting an important decision. Sort of a way to control when your henchies decide to retreat and save everyone vs letting them continue in the hopes that they do not all die and force you to reload. I will probably not allow the respawn option if the whole party dies, but I have yet to decide on that. I am still obviously working out the mechanics for when the player and henchies gets killed.

While I would like to see a simple vote of what your favorites are just so I know for sure, I certainly don't mind a little discussion about them either. It would be easier if you didn't quote the whole of what I posted (starlight jeez buddy) -- referring to question number and answer letter is sufficient my memory isn't that bad yet, and it will help to keep your posts uncluttered and a reasonable length. What I am actually looking for is more to eliminate those ideas people really dislike rather than trying to come up with "the" methods everyone will be most enamoured with. So I'm employing a bit of reverse psychology in the way I worded those questions. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to do it that way... I want the players to experience a certain amount of frustration in death situations, give them a few options or alternatives, and force them to use their heads a little more than usual instead of just reload and try again, reload and try again, reload and try again...!!

There are actually 3 types of henchmen involved: mercenaries (temporary meat shield no real personality to speak of), friends (you get to know and love/hate them but can lose them if you are not careful), plot guys (critical to completing the story). Mercenaries will not be respawnable at all. They have rigidly pre-defined class progressions and will lag behind the player level-wise. When they die (and they are always the most likely party members to die) they are gone for good. Player will not be allowed to revive mercenaries -- for some odd reason the monsters love to tear them to pieces and eat them. There is a generous but limited supply of them "in town". They will mostly only be available in the early stages of the game since you do not meet all the friends or plot guys until later on. They will be strategically placed where you are most likely to need them. If you can keep them alive that's great but they will definitely not stay with you for any extended period. Eventually they will decide to part ways with you.
Friends are the ones I am really debating most about how to handle in death situations (death for them and you) and why I decided to ask players what they like to see with this poll. Basically it will be the player's choice to revive them or let them go or let them go for awhile then go back and get them again later. They are very helpful to have, probably more so than any of the other types, but are also not critical to the story. There are only a few of them available (3 at this point). Players might be allowed some limited control over their class progression as they level and their level will be maintained roughly comparable to or even a couple levels higher than the player. Obviously if I do allow player control there will be a conversation to level them and my question #5 is moot.
Companions are the guys most of you playing other modules will be familar with as the personality centric plot related buddies you cannot do without. They have already been mostly worked out -- basically if you let them die and you cannot revive them somehow, you lose. They will never leave your party but I am still debating whether I want to allow the player to run around with a dead plot guy in their party, and if so for how long/far it will be allowed before you simply lose.
 -- mercenaries, you must pay to hire them for a limited "time". They consume some of the loot. They will probably be making their own equipment decisions.
 -- friends, will volunteer to join you for free or very cheap if you want them. They consume only the loot you give them. You decide what equipment they use.
 -- plot guys will automatically join you. They consume only the loot you give them. You decide what equipment they use.

Player will get a module controlled bind location when they rest in certain safe areas and when certain plot progression events happen. When you choose respawn that's where you and possibly your henchmen will go. There is no fugue plane. For henchman (friends), hire locations will move around if necessary to ensure you will always be able to get back to them in a reasonable time/journey should I decide that they will respawn at their hire spots. Sometimes they may even jump ahead of you to the destination so you won't have to backtrack so much.

Sounds like Andarian and his kin will hate this part...Player death will carry an XP AWARD not a penalty! along with massive gold/item loss. The reasons for this are:
 -- to discourage reloading on player death, to encourage using the respawn option instead. If there is a benefit to choosing respawn, players will hopefully be more likely to choose it. Then it can be used to make things more interesting and varied.
 -- The story line might dictate that you must choose to respawn on a couple of occasions in order to continue. Haven't fully decided on this yet.
 -- realism! death is an experience and returning from death is an extraordinary experience...thus you get some experience points for choosing to go thru it (a tiny amount to be sure but some). Levelling up thru dying is not a possibility.
 -- if you are having problems getting thru something, an XP penalty system makes it worse. The more you have trouble, the more you have to try again, and the further back it sets you especially since typically you have a GP penalty as well. It is a frustrating and never ending cycle towards eventual defeat and it encourages reloading to exploit the death penalty. One tough battle and the whole story can be rendered unplayable. My idea makes it a little bit easier to continue with the story by helping you in these situations instead. Its sort of an automated combat balance right when you need it most system. The more problems you have, the more it will help you out, and the fewer number of retries will be required to get by it. This IMO will reduce frustration rather than increase it and lets the player get on with the story sooner and in a better position to meet the next challenge which is gonna be even more difficult anyway.
 -- much of your gold and/or items are looted by those who kill you tho it will vary depending on what you are killed by. To get it back you gotta go back and take it. Hopefully fostering a desire for revenge in this way can be used to enhance the importance of certain groups of enemies that will probably kill you (resoundingly) the first time you meet them. But as I said earlier the design in this area is still being determined. I may well end up scrapping the whole forced-death-respawn-to-continue idea altogether. In particular I am struggling with how I might let the player understand that he must respawn rather than reload in order to go on without just saying "in all likelyhood you are about to die and need to respawn to continue". I can't think of a way to make it obvious so I will probably forget it. Maybe an automatic respawn but I don't much like those either.
 -- making death a gold/item loss penalty means you have to go out and regain new stuff in easier environments. This makes "loose play" dying much more of a penalty than simply losing half a level or less. It is far more effort intensive to recover from and therefore you shouldn't be so willing to risk death once you learn about it. It also makes it a hell of a lot easier to maintain the whole GP/XP balance that I find is usually wayyyyy off in every module I have ever played. And it makes it far easier to control the player level as the plot progresses.
 -- in a typical XP penalty death system, when you have just levelled up there is not much risk involved with death. As a result, you will play differently. When you die 1XP past a new level the penalty is usually 1XP and maybe a little gold. In a gold/item system the same risk is present at all times regardless of how far you are progressed towards the next level. It is rarely the case that you are totally broke and have no items either. It is the death XP benefit that reduces and it only does so as you approach the next level (i.e. when you need it the least). Choosing to reload gives you the exact same death penalty exploit no matter how close you are to the next level. Yet unless you are almost ready to level up, you also lose some potential level progress by reloading. IMO this is a better way to go than having a reload avoid losing level progress at every stage in a level except just after gaining a new one. Personally, I consider reloading a way of cheating. There is no way to prevent players from using it to exploit the death penalty if that's what they want to do. Yet I understand that most players don't want to start all over from the beginning when they lose. The best you can do is give them alternatives to motivate them to not use it which is what I'm trying for. Death should not always mean "you lose" if you want a more interesting and varied module.

There will be very little if any XP given for killing things unless it is central to a quest. The vast majority of XP that takes you from level to level is gained thru completing the story line quests not thru battles. This will be done for several balance related reasons and to make it easier to control player level advancement as the plot progresses. In accordance with the death penalty I just outlined above, it will further encourage the use of the respawn option instead of reload. Players will not be able to run around killing things multiple times to gain enough levels to easily get thru a tough journey. Monsters are just another obstacle along the way and you get your experience by making it to the destination. It also better allows for areas that do not become "cleared", a pet peave of mine as it often makes no sense at all realistically. I call it the nuclear player system since apparantly the player contaminates the areas so badly that nothing can ever grow there again. In addition, the story dictates that it will be necessary to repeat several journeys via the same route and some of them need to remain active all the time for the same level (generally) player. I don't want to have those areas continually respawning higher and higher level monsters. Again this is in part a realism issue. If those areas could be occupied by orcs, why did they not kill off the bugs that are initially there sooner? By being able to keep the player from levelling up too much, those routes will stay pretty much equally challenging to get past on the return journey, and the player will not have to be surprised in an unrealistic manner by some different much more powerful adversaries that suddenly appear there for no apparant reason or no challenge at all because the area is still empty (very boring). The encounter system will also be alot easier to code since it will allow scaling to be mainly done by area rather than by party level.

Now if that all spurs you to opine with some additional comments or ideas -- go at it.


Oh yeah and by the way thanks for all the responses!!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 02:07:12 AM by Axe Murderer » Logged
 
Reply #17
« on: August 08, 2008, 10:48:06 AM »
sirchet Offline
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I feel...used...reverse psychology? That's when you make me think I thought what you were thinking when I was thinking about what I thought I was thinking...*scratches head*

Hope my votes helped. Grin
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Reply #18
« on: August 08, 2008, 01:52:11 PM »
Axe Murderer Offline
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I feel...used...reverse psychology? That's when you make me think I thought what you were thinking when I was thinking about what I thought I was thinking...*scratches head*

Hope my votes helped. Grin
In the true spirit of the AME forums I suppose I'm obligated to provide some clever retort like "It's a wonder you can think at all -- keep scratchin it just might help." Or are those kind of insults only for Tybae?  I'm still new here after all so I'm not yet familiar with all the correct protocols.

Yeah your responses are always welcomed by me so thanks again.
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Reply #19
« on: August 08, 2008, 03:26:19 PM »
Tybae Offline
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In the true spirit of the AME forums I suppose I'm obligated to provide some clever retort like "It's a wonder you can think at all -- keep scratchin it just might help." Or are those kind of insults only for Tybae?  I'm still new here after all so I'm not yet familiar with all the correct protocols.

Yeah your responses are always welcomed by me so thanks again.


LOL.  I would never say anything like that.  I'm innocent, I tell you. 

*adjusts the horns holding up the halo*
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Reply #20
« on: August 08, 2008, 09:21:35 PM »
kookoo Offline
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In the true spirit of the AME forums I suppose I'm obligated to provide some clever retort like "It's a wonder you can think at all -- keep scratchin it just might help." Or are those kind of insults only for Tybae?  I'm still new here after all so I'm not yet familiar with all the correct protocols.

Yeah your responses are always welcomed by me so thanks again.


LOL.  I would never say anything like that.  I'm innocent, I tell you. 

*adjusts the horns holding up the halo*

Hey!  That's where my halo went!  Give it back Tybae!
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Reply #21
« on: August 08, 2008, 11:11:31 PM »
Starlight Offline
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Axe,

For the death penalty, I think it is somewhat comes from the D&D materials. I'm not sure about the concept and most module makers don't want the player to just respawn over and over again without any consequences.

For the death bonus you have mentioned, I think it depends on the theme of the modules. If there are some mini-quests created for after-death, something like adventure inside the realm of death, you can gain little knowledge(and XP) for every travel or fighting something to gain the favor of death (god or entity, something like that). They allow you to respawn. Or something like exploit the "bug" or "hole" in the death system and you can escape from it (just like hacking  Grin ) then the player can respawn.
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Reply #22
« on: August 09, 2008, 05:07:17 AM »
Andarian Offline
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For the death bonus you have mentioned, I think it depends on the theme of the modules. If there are some mini-quests created for after-death, something like adventure inside the realm of death, you can gain little knowledge(and XP) for every travel or fighting something to gain the favor of death (god or entity, something like that).

Agreed. If player death is part of the story, then it's a whole different ballgame. But I personally think that resurrection is greatly abused and overused in RPGs, and prefer modules in which the threat of death is real and meaningful. That's why I prefer "respawn" options that are based on the idea of having characters "fall in combat" but not actually be dead yet, and in which the "respawning" is understood as the application of first aid.
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Reply #23
« on: August 09, 2008, 11:14:58 AM »
Axe Murderer Offline
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For the death bonus you have mentioned, I think it depends on the theme of the modules. If there are some mini-quests created for after-death, something like adventure inside the realm of death, you can gain little knowledge(and XP) for every travel or fighting something to gain the favor of death (god or entity, something like that).

Agreed. If player death is part of the story, then it's a whole different ballgame. But I personally think that resurrection is greatly abused and overused in RPGs, and prefer modules in which the threat of death is real and meaningful. That's why I prefer "respawn" options that are based on the idea of having characters "fall in combat" but not actually be dead yet, and in which the "respawning" is understood as the application of first aid.
Good stuff. I understand your points completely and have to agree that rez is definitely an overused concept if it isn't part of the story (and it will not be for me). This is particularly true in MP games. However, in single player either the game ends or you allow a means to continue via respawn. There simply is no other option if death is to be a real thing. If you're gonna have respawns then there must be a penalty of some kind or death is absolutely meaningless. If that penalty is too steep it really makes no sense go to all the trouble to code it up to begin with because players will always reload to avoid it. If you implement the idea of "fall in combat but not actually dead" then I don't really see any "threat of death" at all since you never actually die at all. I'm afraid I really dislike that. I've got a bleeding system in place which pretty much handles that scenario anyway.

To be honest, I'm with you 100% and prefer one death per game -- you die you liose seems most realistic to me except under very unusual plot related circumstances. Only gods can rez and players are never gods. If I was making this for me to play that's what I would do for sure. In fact I would force a restart from level 0 if I could for me. I just get a greater sense of accomplishment when I can go all the way start to finish without getting killed at all. If I can't do that I don't believe I've won the game. As I said before I think reload == cheating. Whenever I use it I feel guilt -- like I am cheating myself out of a really great feeling or admitting failure.

The way I see it, the player will really be, or should really be, the ultimate judge of when he has lost the game should he die. If you don't provide a respawn option then he willl always lose every single time and be forced to reload or start over. If you do provide one then the choice is left up to him. If he wants to reload he will, and it simply means he's decided that he lost which is perfectly fine. If the player thinks like you & I do then the option to choose-to-lose will always still be there no matter how the respawn option is or isn't implemented. But if a player does not agree with our philosophy, then he should be given the option to play it the way he wants to IMO. So far my poll results seem to indicate that a majority of players prefer to have a way to respawn... although I really didn't provide the die==lose option explicitly.

As a builder I could give dozens of respawn options. No penalty XP only XP+GP, choose your %, etc. etc. to allow for every possible play style. But that's way too much work for me so I plan on giving them only one method. Maybe the one I've outlined isn't the best. It is quite different than most I've seen tho which should give the game a component of uniqueness. Maybe it just sucks and I should do the standard XP+GP deal that most everybody simply exploits anyway. If that's what you think don't be afraid to say so, I won't be offended or anything. I should probably make another poll for the death penalty idea to see what everyone thinks about it. For the module to appeal to a wider range of players however, I think a respawn option of some kind should be there -- and I will be putting one in. What I'm trying to decide first is how to handle the henchmen.


So far poll results are as follows:
1. Respawn dead henchmen
 5%  - remove from party, respawn at hire spot.
53% - remove from party, stay put & wait for raise/rez, respawn at death spot
16% - stay in party, stay put & wait for HOTU rez, respawn at hire spot
11% - remove from party, stay put & wait for raise/rez, respawn at hire spot
16% - NWN2 style, no death possible

2. Where henchmen go when you respawn
50% - all stay in party, all go with you to bind point
28% - all removed from party, all stay and fight.
11% - living removed from party to stay and fight, dead go with you to bind point
11% - can't read the question
 
3. What will rez a henchie
59% - raise/rez only
29% - HOTU style
12% - NWN2 style, no death possible

4. What happens to dead henchies you don't rez
38% - time limit perma destroy
15% - time limit return to hire spot
8%  - time limit autorez & rejoin party
15% - leave area perma destroy
15% - leave area return to hire spot
 8%  - NWN2 style, no death possible
- After battle 1
- 16 hours     1
- 36 hours     1
- 12 hours     1
-  8 hours      1

5. Henchman level up
56% - auto level with player
25% - player chooses when in convo
19% - based on what they kill.
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Reply #24
« on: August 09, 2008, 12:03:40 PM »
Andarian Offline
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If you implement the idea of "fall in combat but not actually dead" then I don't really see any "threat of death" at all since you never actually die at all.

That's not what I mean at all, so I apologize if I wasn't clearer about that. In Sanctum, I use a "dying system" in which fallen characters are unconscious, and may bleed to death if they fall with serious wounds and go too long without healing or first aid. In NWN2, fallen characters will respawn at the end of combat, but only if there are others in the party left standing at the end. That can be interpreted (and I like to interpret it) as a result of the survivors applying first aid to the fallen after the battle. Otherwise, the party is defeated, the death screen is displayed, and you have to load a saved game. In either case, there is a definite threat of death, the reasonable assumption that there is a state (unconscious/dying) between it and being mobile, active, and able to fight, and no "magic button" to restore all of the player's spells and hit points.

Quote
As I said before I think reload == cheating. Whenever I use it I feel guilt -- like I am cheating myself out of a really great feeling or admitting failure.

I have exactly the opposite view. I think of respawning as cheating, and reloading as the honest way to deal with being defeated. Trying a difficult battle with different tactics until I learn how to beat it, and by the rules of the encounter as the author designed it, is one of the things that I find most enjoyable about playing the game. I put a lot of thought into designing and balancing combats, and I appreciate it when other builders do the same. But press a magic button that restores all of my stats and lets me keep fighting, even though I got my tail handed to me fair and square? Nope. I won't do it. Not unless it's a part of the plot and the author has given me a very plausible reason for having that power -- such as a special item or ability, or non-gratuitous divine intervention -- and one that has reasonable limitations. Otherwise, I think that the ability to respawn becomes ridiculous and unrealistic.

Quote
The way I see it, the player will really be, or should really be, the ultimate judge of when he has lost the game should he die.

I think it's interesting that again, I have exactly the opposite opinion. I think it should be up to the author, and not the player, to decide when the player has lost the game and when he should die. If the player can ignore the author's intent with regard to story, combat, and the consequences of his actions, then it destroys the author's ability to craft a coherent and compelling story and gameplay experience. I also think that providing a respawn option is often used by builders as a way to avoid having to think carefully about and play-test the combat balance of their modules.

Quote
For the module to appeal to a wider range of players however, I think a respawn option of some kind should be there -- and I will be putting one in.

That's fair, and one should certainly build according to one's own preferences and those of one's target audience. I respect other peoples' differing preferences, but I'm definitely not a member of that target audience, and neither do I build for it. So as a player I will never use, and as a builder I will never code, a respawn option that doesn't have a specific and reasonable plot-justification. Smiley

Anyway, I'll leave my comments at that, since I don't want to derail the intent of your thread further. I'll be happy to take this discussion off-line, or to another thread, if you or anyone else is interested in continuing it. Smiley
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 12:58:44 PM by Andarian » Logged

 
Reply #25
« on: August 09, 2008, 01:23:35 PM »
kookoo Offline
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Making a module, or even a game takes a massive amount of works.  What most players don't understand is how much effort goes into just making decisions as to what systems to use.  this is the perfect example.

I'll go ahead and throw in my overall philosophy as a player and as a builder. 

As a player:  Is it interesting and enjoyable?  That is my primary concern.  The truth is, I don't really care all that much what kind of death system is there.  I want to play a story, preferably one that is as a good book that is fun to read and I can imagine myself in.  If I get 80% of the way through and have to start at the beginning of a book, I won't read it through again.  That's a bit simplified, but true.  the thing a lot of game makers in general don't realize is that not everyone wants to battle.  I like battles only if it's interesting, fun and relevant.  Otherwise I cheat past them, or if I can't cheat, I stop playing.  I always want the next part of the story.  I want to feel like I'm there and that there always something new to explore or another adventure. 
As a player, I admire a system if it's well done, as long as that system doesn't make the game unenjoyable.  It's not just modules, but games themselves.  One of the things I like about NWN is that it has so many modules and a lot of them are better stories than any OC out there.  The module makers aren't bound by being politically correct or needing to make something marketable either.  Because of that you find more originality in the story and greater chances taken in the various systems that can be tried.

Now as a builder, I try to please myself as a player.  I want to make a story first, then I worry about the systems.  Is my story going to be interesting and enjoyable?  That includes plots, conversations, npcs and henchies.  If so, then I've accomplished my goal.  After that, I think about how I would like to play it.  I try to make it all look nice.  then I try to think of the rewards.  Players like rewards.  I like neat stuff.  Then I think about how to make the battles enjoyable, that means the right kind of creatures that are powerful enough to give most players a little challenge, but not so powerful that the player has to reload or respawn a lot. 
Overall, I want as few barriers and stops to the game as possible.  The longer someone plays my module, the more likely they are to finish it and be satisfied.  If they have to work too hard to get to the end, they may never finish it. 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is; you have to please yourself as a builder, but it's even more pleasing if players enjoy what you build.  Make the custom system, but don't stop the player from playing the module.  Overall, the story you tell is what the player wants to experience.  Make the death system and the hench system work within the story, but don't let it stop the enjoyment that the players feel while experiencing your module.

Also, understand that my specialty is the story and the humor and when it comes to the scripting, I do only what I have to do to accomplish what I need and that is usually with your help.   Wink 

In any case, the key is enjoying what you build and taking a sense of accomplishment in it.  Good Building. Smiley
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Reply #26
« on: August 09, 2008, 09:51:47 PM »
BenWH Offline
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Axe, in the Wanderer series I actually offered the player the choice of respawn and penalty system at the start of each module. It seems this was greatly appreciated. Why don't you do something similar?
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Reply #27
« on: August 10, 2008, 05:18:32 AM »
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Axe, in the Wanderer series I actually offered the player the choice of respawn and penalty system at the start of each module. It seems this was greatly appreciated. Why don't you do something similar?
Start of the module eh? That's a really good idea. I'm curious to know what you did exactly.

However, I am running another poll on repawn penalty and if it keeps up like it is, it looks like I won't need to add a death system at all which is way cool. Bleed will be plenty. No need giving people what they don't want especially if it saves me some headaches.


Andarian -- excellent arguments there, not derailing in the least. This topic concerns death & respawn so your discussion is dead on the mark. Very instructive as well. I'm a yapper so I love debates like that. I am open to all forms of advice even if the ideas aren't as flexible as mine. Who knows maybe I'll end up learning that rigidity is the better method in the end. After all, you're the one with all the XP since you always reload heheh.  Cry

Ok misunderstanding no need to apologize bro. I have a bleed system in place so that will already be there in addition to any death system -- should I add one. I'm beginning to wonder if I really need it now.

Just for the record tho, it is my opinion that we don't have opposiing views on those points at all. Not basically in any event. I just think we perceive the reality of what is actually going on differently. What I really should have said is that I think reload == cheating and respawn == cheating too. It isn't an either-or deal to me. Frankly, I don't see much of a difference at all between those two buttons other than one assesses a penalty and the other doesn't. The way I see it they are both magical heal all buttons. In fact, of the two I would argue that the reload button is taking the easy way out -- no penalty, less honor. The only truly "honorable" way to recover from death is to admit you failed and start over with a new guy. Of course my time isn't unimited either so if its a long game I will use the reload button just like everybody else does -- it just makes me feel guilty is all. Grin If I can do it and take a penalty I wouldn't mind that -- self deprevation is great for guilt! The only reason I tend to use the reload over the respawn when I do it is because the respawn penalty is usually unreasonably steep.

Honestly I'm a little surprised after reading your post that you are so against the respawn button. It seems to me you'd be perfectly happy with it as long as it carried no penalty at all. Hell you wouln't have to wait for the game to reload. Maybe I'm way off here, but I'm thinking you are so turned off by the idea that there exists a magical means to return from death that it blinds you to the reality of what actually goes on when you cliick. You think one button is imbued with some evil magic and the other is clean. From where I'm sitting there is no difference really between the two. They both accomplish the exact same thing -- revive and try again. Respawn does not change the encounter design, nor the meticulouly manicured balance, nor your ability to make tactical experiments, nor your opportunity to learn how to beat it, nor does it allow the player to ignore your story any more or less than the reload button does.

I am also not entirely conviced that reload and try again means you are really testing different tactics so much as you are testing the random number generator. Maybe you got unlucky with your rolls. Returning and using the exact same tactics or even worse tactics might get you by if you get lucky with those dice -- not probable perhaps but possible if your tactics are sound enough. It could very well be the case that is was neither the monsters nor the encounter design nor your tactics but rather the dice that handed you your ass fair and square the first time. I don't see how any of that changes if you choose respawn over reload.

And the bit about who should be in charge we agree on as well. I also think the author should be the decision maker. As far as the story progression and module layout goes he is, and that's a good thing. But when it comes to handing out the consequnces of player actions I'm afraid he sits in the copilot's seat. The difference in our views is that I think while the author "should be" the one making the choices, the reality is that the player "is" the one that gets to do that and there isn't anything you can do about it. You don't seem to see it that way. Apparantly you believe there is a way to trump the player's choices and I don't see that as a possibility. If you tell him 30 times "you're dead, you lose" he can simply reload, wipe it out, and come back every time with "no I didn't, see I'm still here". Thus the ultimate decision of whether or not he loses (or even wins) will always be his in the end. The only way to trump him is to make it impossible to win or impossible to lose. You can tell him "you can't win" and he won't be able to change that, but you cannot tell him "you lose" and have the last word.

Because of that is why I said he should be given the options to choose the way he wants to recover. It isn't ideal by any stretch but it is the way it is, not the way it should be. And again, I see no reason why the respawn button would be any different than reload in regards to the player being able to ignore the story or the author's intent or his ability to craft his story. By the time respawn is available the author's intent to make you dead has alrleady happened. You can't ignore it after the fact using respawn any more than you can using reload. In fact if either of them provided the player that ability it would be the reload button which you can use any time you please. In the middle of combat if things aren't going your way you can reload. You're unconcious and bleeding -- reload is there. Yet respawn isn't even available until after you suffer the author's intent by dying. If the author says "You are about to die" the only way the player can ignore that is to reload. Therefore I think if you're gonna make the ignore argument you have it backwards. The player has more opportunity to ignore your intent and hose your story crafting ability with a button that is always active over one that is only available under certain "post-intent" conditions. That's why it surprises me that you hate it so much.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 05:38:09 AM by Axe Murderer » Logged
 
Reply #28
« on: August 10, 2008, 06:20:53 AM »
BenWH Offline
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Axe, in the Wanderer series I actually offered the player the choice of respawn and penalty system at the start of each module. It seems this was greatly appreciated. Why don't you do something similar?
Start of the module eh? That's a really good idea. I'm curious to know what you did exactly.

I did it using a pretty simple method if I recall correctly. I had bleeding already (for party healing in multiplayer), and then asked the player if they want to respawn where they are or back in town, and whether they want a penalty or not. Custom onspawn, ondeath scripts detected what the variable was set to and handled it accordingly. In multiplayer I think I set it so that you all got the last person's choice, but I may even have left that free too.
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Reply #29
« on: August 10, 2008, 07:17:33 AM »
sirchet Offline
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The player has more opportunity to ignore your intent and hose your story crafting ability with a button that is always active over one that is only available under certain "post-intent" conditions. That's why it surprises me that you hate it so much.

Then again Axe Murderer, without the respawn option, the player is "forced" to start again from whenever they remembered to save. This also gives the player the option of going a little more "Hard Core" and only saving at certain events.
Don't worry, I'm not going to go into a player discipline rant.

btw, excellent discussion bringing up valid points.
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