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Topic: Players -- Please answer this poll  (Read 11616 times)
« on: August 06, 2008, 10:43:09 PM »
Axe Murderer Offline
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I have a poll for all you SP module players out there concerning henchmen (not including animal companions, familiars, or summoned critters)...
 
 
 
When you play a single-player module that supports henchmen that can be respawned:
 
 
1. What is your favorite method for bringing them back to life when they fall?
  • A) When they die they automatically and immediately respawn back where you hired them. They get removed from your party and you must go re-hire them to get them back again.
  • B) When they die they just lie there where they died. They get removed from your party and you must use a resurrection or raise dead spell on them to bring them back and then rehire them right there where you rezzed them.
  • C) They lie where they die but are not removed from your party. You can respawn them using any type of heal spell, feat (like lay on hands), raise dead, or resurrection -- ala HOTU style. If you don't respawn them after some amount of time, they are removed from the party and respawned back where you originally hired them as in option A above.
  • D) They get removed from your party and lie where they died. You can resurrect them only with raise dead or resurrection spells. When you rez them, they respawn back where you hired them. If you don't rez them within some set amount of time, they are permanently destroyed.
  • E) They do not get removed from your party and lie where they died. You can resurrect them only with raise dead or resurrection spells. If you don't rez them within some set amount of time, they are dissmissed from the party and permanently destroyed.
  • F) They do not get removed from your party and lie where they died. You can revive them using any type of heal spell, feat (like lay on hands), raise dead, or resurrection. If you leave the area without revivimg them, they are dissmissed from the party and permanently destroyed.
  • G) Same as F except instead of being permanently destroyed they return to where you initially hired them.
  • H) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.
 
2. What is your favorite method of dealing with henchmen in the party when you are killed and choose to respawn?
  • A) All henchmen, whether living or dead at the time, are sent with you to your respawn location and the entire party is healed up.
  • B) All your henchmen are removed from your party and remain behind to continue the battle without you. To get them back you must return to the battle and rehire them including rezzing any dead ones.
  • C) All live henchmen are removed from your party and left behind to carry on the battle without you. All dead henchmen are revived and jumped with you to your respawn location.
  • D) All henchmen are removed from your party, revived, healed, and sent back to where you originally hired them. To get them back you must go rehire them all.
  • E) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.
 
3. What is your favorite rule for reviving dead henchmen?
  • A) Only raise dead or resurrection can bring them back.
  • B) HOTU style -- any heal type spell or feat can be used to revive them. This would include  Cure Minor/Light/Moderate/Serious/Critical Wounds, Heal, Healing Kits, Lay On Hands, Wholeness of Body, Healing Circle, Mass Heal, Raise Dead, Greater Restoration, Resurrection, Regenerate, Aid, and Virtue.
  • C) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.
 
4. What is your favorite rule concerning dead henchmen you decide not to revive or don't have the ability to revive?
  • A) After some set time period they are permanently destroyed.
  • B) After some set time period they are revived and returned to where they were hired.
  • C) After some set time period they are revived, automatically rejoin your party, and are jumped to wherever you currently happen to be.
  • D) When you leave the area they are permanently destroyed.
  • E) When you leave the area they are revived and returned to where they were hired.
  • F) When you leave the area they are revived, automatically rejoin your party, and are jumped to wherever you currently happen to be.
  • G) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.
  • -- for A, B, & C what would be a reasonable time period?
 
5. Which henchman level-up rule do you like best?
  • A) Henchmen automatically level up whenever I do.
  • B) Henchmen gain the ability to level up whenever I do but I like to tell henchmen when to level up by talking to them.
  • C) Henchmen should level up based on what they kill just like PCs.
    -- Should this automatic level up happen immediately or the next time the party rests?
  • D) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.
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Reply #1
« on: August 07, 2008, 02:11:28 AM »
Starlight Offline
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1. What is your favorite method for bringing them back to life when they fall?

A) When they die they automatically and immediately respawn back where you hired them. They get removed from your party and you must go re-hire them to get them back again.[/li][/list]
C) They lie where they die but are not removed from your party. You can respawn them using any type of heal spell, feat (like lay on hands), raise dead, or resurrection -- ala HOTU style. If you don't respawn them after some amount of time, they are removed from the party and respawned back where you originally hired them as in option A above.
G) Same as F except instead of being permanently destroyed they return to where you initially hired them.

Answer A and C are barely acceptable as I don't think it is realistic.

I have tried some modules using method A before. However, it has two problems occurs:
- If the companions defeat the enemies after they have been respawned, no experience points is granted to the player. This will affected the level of the player if this occurs frequently.
- If the companions is not set to invulnerable after they have been respawned, they most likely will disappear permanently when they are being killed the second time. I think this is related to the problem in NWN engine.

For method C, it may possess a problem to the players if they are very far away from the place where they hired the companions or the place is no longer reachable anymore. The same go for method G.

D) They get removed from your party and lie where they died. You can resurrect them only with raise dead or resurrection spells. When you rez them, they respawn back where you hired them. If you don't rez them within some set amount of time, they are permanently destroyed.
E) They do not get removed from your party and lie where they died. You can resurrect them only with raise dead or resurrection spells. If you don't rez them within some set amount of time, they are dissmissed from the party and permanently destroyed.
F) They do not get removed from your party and lie where they died. You can revive them using any type of heal spell, feat (like lay on hands), raise dead, or resurrection. If you leave the area without revivimg them, they are dissmissed from the party and permanently destroyed.

I hate method D to F as during the adventure, especially for heavy role-playing/adventure modules, the player has already form a bond with the companions emtionally. Permanently destroy is a great turn off.

B) When they die they just lie there where they died. They get removed from your party and you must use a resurrection or raise dead spell on them to bring them back and then rehire them right there where you rezzed them.

H) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.

There is one method I love very much and my answer is overlapped with that of question 4. Please check the answer in question 4.

If I can only choose one, I will choose method B.

 
2. What is your favorite method of dealing with henchmen in the party when you are killed and choose to respawn?
A) All henchmen, whether living or dead at the time, are sent with you to your respawn location and the entire party is healed up.
B) All your henchmen are removed from your party and remain behind to continue the battle without you. To get them back you must return to the battle and rehire them including rezzing any dead ones.
C) All live henchmen are removed from your party and left behind to carry on the battle without you. All dead henchmen are revived and jumped with you to your respawn location.
D) All henchmen are removed from your party, revived, healed, and sent back to where you originally hired them. To get them back you must go rehire them all.
E) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.

For method A and C, I think they only suit particular themes. e.g. Coldhearth by thegeorge use method C. When the player die, he/she will be transferred to realm of death of respawn. Then they can travel back to the location where they die with XP penalty. If there is no such similar realm/setting it only make the modules look weird.

I have encountered a better approach: In Citadel by Jim Grimsley, Maddeleine St. Romain, Jeff Tyson, they have included Tony K's AI. it is a really fabulous scripts I have ever encountered! If the player/other companions are being killed, the companions (they have not left the party) who are:
1. clerics/druids
2. or divine classes like paladins, rangers or classes who can use magic items like rouges, bards, wizards, etc who have the scrolls/items have the spell raise dead/resurrection
will cast the spells/use the items onto the player automatically. Thus the player is revived.

Another approach is, the player respawn at the exact location they died with XP penalty and the companions have not left the party, if the setting is right.


3. What is your favorite rule for reviving dead henchmen?
A) Only raise dead or resurrection can bring them back.
B) HOTU style -- any heal type spell or feat can be used to revive them. This would include  Cure Minor/Light/Moderate/Serious/Critical Wounds, Heal, Healing Kits, Lay On Hands, Wholeness of Body, Healing Circle, Mass Heal, Raise Dead, Greater Restoration, Resurrection, Regenerate, Aid, and Virtue.

Generally I prefer method A. B is also acceptable if the setting is right.

4. What is your favorite rule concerning dead henchmen you decide not to revive or don't have the ability to revive?
A) After some set time period they are permanently destroyed.
D) When you leave the area they are permanently destroyed.

Same as the answer for method D,E,F in question 1, I hate these two methods.

B) After some set time period they are revived and returned to where they were hired.
E) When you leave the area they are revived and returned to where they were hired.

Same as the answer for method C,G in question 1.

C) After some set time period they are revived, automatically rejoin your party, and are jumped to wherever you currently happen to be.
F) When you leave the area they are revived, automatically rejoin your party, and are jumped to wherever you currently happen to be.

It may be great for low level modules but not realistic for higher level modules when raise dead/resurrection is available.

G) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.

I have forgotten which modules I have tried before has an interesting approach: The companion will be reduced to a corpse and a backpack contains all of the items he/she carry. When a raise dead/resurrection is casted onto the corpse, he/she will be revived and collect back their items. If the players have no immediate means to revive the companion, they can carry the corpse to the nearby temple to have the cleric to revive the companion.

 
5. Which henchman level-up rule do you like best?
A) Henchmen automatically level up whenever I do.
B) Henchmen gain the ability to level up whenever I do but I like to tell henchmen when to level up by talking to them.
C) Henchmen should level up based on what they kill just like PCs.
-- Should this automatic level up happen immediately or the next time the party rests?
D) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.

Citadel has included a good level-up system: when you first hire the companion, you can tell him/her to
1. level up his/her current class to the same level as the player
2. or level up one level only. This can have a better control onto the companion as you can control them to mutli-class.
However, after the companion is of the same level as player, they will levelup automatically with the current class set for them when the player levelup.

I perfer method B for the player to tell them to level-up after a new level is archived.
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Reply #2
« on: August 07, 2008, 05:42:36 AM »
Andarian Offline
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When you play a single-player module that supports henchmen that can be respawned:

Talk about opening a can of worms, Axe! This is a poll that I can't really answer without an extended discussion, and it's a subject that I've actually given a lot of thought to. I'll try to make my actual responses brief, as you asked, but some of them really do require prior elaoration on what I think are important design issues that lie behind the questions.

There are two important design decisions implicit in your poll questions. The first is the use of henchmen as opposed to companions (see the explanation below), and the second is support for henchman or companion respawning (presumably after death). For the record I actively dislike both of these features, and prefer modules that (a) use companions, (b) disable all respawning after actual death, both for players and companions alike. That's what I did in Sanctum of the Archmage, although I compensated for it by using an improved version of the Module Builder's Henchman Kit's "bleeding/dying system." That's a system in which a player or companion that is struck down in combat lies "bleeding" and accumulating negative hitpoints every round until they reach a limit, and during which time they can be healed to bring their HP back into the positive range. If the player or a companion "bleeds to death," then the death screen is displayed and the player has to reload a saved game. For the record, this is my preferred "death system" (which is why I wrote mine that way Smiley).

I also need to explain the difference between what I'm calling "companions" and "henchmen." In a nutshell, henchmen are designed and intended to provide combat support for the player. Their primary function is to serve as "meat-shields," although they may also have some interesting (but not plot-critical) conversation options. They're more appropriate to Action or H&S modules, and to RP/Adventure modules in which the plot is focused solely on the player. By companions in this context, what I'm referring to are party characters who play a plot-critical role in the module's story. Companions are key to more story-driven RP and Adventure modules in which the story isn't solely focused on the player and his actions.

The problem with allowing companion permadeath is that if they really are plot-critical, then the story will cease to make sense if they're allowed to die. Henchmen can be allowed to either survive or die, since nothing in the plot depends on their presence. So many of the listed options are counter-productive for companions. Since I much prefer playing mods with companions, I'll answer the questions based on that assumption.

With that out of the way, here are my answers: Smiley

Quote
1. What is your favorite method for bringing them back to life when they fall?
  • H) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.

I like either the death system used in my modules (described above), or something like the default system used in NWN2. In NWN2, characters who go down in combat stay down until the battle is over, and then they respawn automatically (at 1 hp) when the battle ends. That simulates the idea of being "struck down but not quite dead yet," and makes it such that you don't lose a fight unless the player and all companions are struck down. Everyone recovers after the fight is over on the assumption that the survivors tend to the wounds of the fallen and keep them from dying.

Quote
2. What is your favorite method of dealing with henchmen in the party when you are killed and choose to respawn?
  • E) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.

I never respawn, so I don't care what happens in that case. If the death screen is displayed, I will reload a saved game, whether or not respawning is provided as an option. If my character falls in combat but has not yet actually died, I prefer that companions remain in party and fight on without me, and can heal me to bring me back into the fight (or revive me afterwards).
 
Quote
3. What is your favorite rule for reviving dead henchmen?
  • C) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.

The B) option (HOTU style) isn't too bad, but what I really prefer is what I described above. Henchmen revive at the end of combat at 1 hp (a la NWN2) on the premise of not having actually died yet and having received first aid from the survivors, or can receive first aid from the player during or after the battle (a la Sanctum).

Quote
4. What is your favorite rule concerning dead henchmen you decide not to revive or don't have the ability to revive?
  • G) Suggest another scenario you prefer -- try to keep it brief and to the point.

I prefer that this simply not be allowed. It's fine for henchmen, but not for companions. I prefer to treat companion permadeath as equivalent to player permadeath (displaying the death screen with no respawn option). Automatically reviving fallen party members to 1 hp after combat is won a la NWN2 is also a good option. In Sanctum, the companion will remain in-party and without first aid will eventually either revive on their own and follow you, or die (resulting in display of the death screen).
 
Quote
5. Which henchman level-up rule do you like best?
  • C) Henchmen should level up based on what they kill just like PCs.

That's how I do it in Sanctum. I use the MBHK's system to award separate XP to companions (stored as a variable on them) and to check for and perform levelup anytime they receive XP.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 08:49:32 AM by Andarian » Logged

 
Reply #3
« on: August 07, 2008, 05:58:47 AM »
Andarian Offline
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I have encountered a better approach: In Citadel by Jim Grimsley, Maddeleine St. Romain, Jeff Tyson, they have included Tony K's AI. it is a really fabulous scripts I have ever encountered! If the player/other companions are being killed, the companions (they have not left the party) who are:
1. clerics/druids
2. or divine classes like paladins, rangers or classes who can use magic items like rouges, bards, wizards, etc who have the scrolls/items have the spell raise dead/resurrection
will cast the spells/use the items onto the player automatically. Thus the player is revived.

That's in the Module Builder's Henchman Kit (MBHK), which I know that Citadel used at least at one point (I don't know if TonyK's system also offers it). Sanctum uses (a modified version of) the MBHK as well. As soon as I saw what you're describing, though, I ripped it out of the version of the MBHK that I use in Sanctum. Part of that was because the plot of Sanctum requires the disabling of all true resurrection (cf. the "Denial of Resurrection," explained by Orion in Sanctum 2), and because it doesn't mesh with the bleeding/death system. If you're not using the bleeding system it can be used to simulate receiving first aid from a healer (on the premise that you're not quite dead), but I didn't like it myself.


I have tried some modules using method A before. However, it has two problems occurs:
- If the companions defeat the enemies after they have been respawned, no experience points is granted to the player. This will affected the level of the player if this occurs frequently.

That depends on how the XP awarding is coded for the module. You can do that any way you want. For example, you can code it so that none, some, or all XP is given to a fallen PC when a companion defeates a creature. The second option (some) is what I actually do in my modules.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 08:20:08 AM by Andarian » Logged

 
Reply #4
« on: August 07, 2008, 06:24:02 AM »
BenWH Offline
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1> In order of preference: B, C, the method used in WCoC where they are respawned after a combat finishes, D. None of the others.

2> I prefer methods that generally allow you to get on with playing, so if death is not a central part of the story, I prefer to respawn near or where I was, with my henchmen. I liked the method used in WCoC the best: you respawn, but only if you have a live henchmen within 30 feet, and you respawn at the nearest safe location. Otherwise, you die permnanently. This made caring about your henchmen worthwhile.

3> I don't really mind that much. See 1 above! But I do like there to be a risk of a henchman not being able to respawn too (to stop you being blase). In the Wanderer for example, if a henchman suffered massive damage or died as a result of body destruction (such as fire), they were permanently destroyed, otherwise you could raise them.

4> A. Half a day (or about 20 minutes of real time)

5> C. But with the option to control via dialogue what their choice will be if they are dual class.

By the way, I make no distinction between henchmen and companions - my answers are the same whatever we decide to call them!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 06:25:36 AM by BenWH » Logged

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Reply #5
« on: August 07, 2008, 07:11:42 AM »
kookoo Offline
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Ok, the way I like to treat my henchpeople/henchzombies/henchlizardfolk is:

Hmm, I think I'm going to explain a little bit first too.  I built the henchies in my module the way that I liked to play them.  The fact of the matter is that I think they are the best part of a single player module because It's nice not to have to save the world by yourself.  My philosophy on playing a module is that I want to enjoy the story without working my butt off to get to the end.  I definitely don't like going back and forth to get my henchies back and I don't enjoy it when they permanently die 'cause I've developed a fighting system with them and in a many modules, a rapport with them as well.  If there is permanent death, I always reload my last saved game and if I can't beat the battle, I tell the henchie to wait while I go into god mode with a strength of 80.  I like story modules and role play modules more than I like battles though.  *I don't do that in beta testing though in case Fester Pot reads this*   Grin

Ok, that said: 

1)  I like B.  However, when I test the module, I always put a scroll of raise dead or resurrection in areas that have difficult battles so that players who aren't clerics, or don't plan ahead, have a way to bring the hench back to life.  In an especially difficult dungeon, I might even put a rod of resurrection as treasure after a boss.  I also make these items available in easily accessable shops.  Due to the fact that I have 4 henchies in part one and will have 12 in part two, this is even more important.

2)  I like A. although I think I have it so that if they are dead or injured, they stay that way until I fix them up.  I have respawn penalties of gold and xp too.

3)  A, but remember that the player should have the resources to do so.  It's no good if they can't.

4)  G, they just stay there until you get around to getting back.  Resurrection will fix any of the rat nibbles, the healing spells you cast after raising dead will do the same.

5)  Definitely B.  However, if the module starts out at level 20, this gets tedious to have to level each one up 20 times.  I have a new script and variable system made with massive help from a friend for part 2 that will level up the henchies when the player enters the area. 

Remember that I build to suit my style of play, so this is all how I like to play a module with henchies, not just build.
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Reply #6
« on: August 07, 2008, 07:38:37 AM »
Andarian Offline
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A couple of other quick points:

1. Just for the record, the poll questions do appear to be somewhat NWN1-oriented, especially since the default NWN2 system isn't listed as an option. I suspect that NWN1 is the primary environment that you had in mind, though (please correct me if I'm wrong Smiley).

2. NWN2 introduced a use of the word "companion" that isn't quite as restricted as the one I defined in my earlier posts. I suppose that technically, what I'm really talking about is the distinction between plot-critical companions, and other henchmen or companions. But whatever we decide to call it, I do think there is an important difference between plot-critical characters and non-plot-critical characters, especially in party combat. Allowing character permadeath does restrict some of what you can do with that character in terms of plot and story, and for the reasons that I described.
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Reply #7
« on: August 07, 2008, 08:24:55 AM »
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It's interesting that everyone on this forum is expanding on their answers while the same poll on the Bioware forum is just getting the letter answers for each one.   Cheesy
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Reply #8
« on: August 07, 2008, 09:16:38 AM »
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That's in the Module Builder's Henchman Kit (MBHK), which I know that Citadel used at least at one point (I don't know if TonyK's system also offers it). Sanctum uses (a modified version of) the MBHK as well. As soon as I saw what you're describing, though, I ripped it out of the version of the MBHK that I use in Sanctum. Part of that was because the plot of Sanctum requires the disabling of all true resurrection (cf. the "Denial of Resurrection," explained by Orion in Sanctum 2), and because it doesn't mesh with the bleeding/death system. If you're not using the bleeding system it can be used to simulate receiving first aid from a healer (on the premise that you're not quite dead), but I didn't like it myself.

Yes, I agree with you. This does depends on the theme of the module. If the module has "Denial of Resurrection" or even no "Divine Intervention", then just no respawn.

Just something off topic. An interesting concept raised in Citadel is that, the builders of Citadel, stole the core of magic from some gods. They only regard this power as a tool, a "magic" they can make use of, while the spiritual side of this power (religion, power granted by those gods) are being completely ignored. Thus the clerics inside the city can even cast healing spells without worshiping any gods.
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Reply #9
« on: August 07, 2008, 09:23:05 AM »
Starlight Offline
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It's interesting that everyone on this forum is expanding on their answers while the same poll on the Bioware forum is just getting the letter answers for each one.   Cheesy

heh....sometimes I find myself to be too talkative. In many discussion I like to give out the reasons to backup and explain my points of view. I just hope I'm not too disturbing  Tongue
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Reply #10
« on: August 07, 2008, 09:23:15 AM »
Tybae Offline
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It's interesting that everyone on this forum is expanding on their answers while the same poll on the Bioware forum is just getting the letter answers for each one.   Cheesy

1  C&D
2  A&B
3  A
4  B
5  A

So there!  Cheesy
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Reply #11
« on: August 07, 2008, 09:30:14 AM »
Starlight Offline
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1  C&D
2  A&B
3  A
4  B
5  A

So there!  Cheesy

The above answer is posted from some unknown universe. It is too difficult to decrypt so we can just ignore them!  Tongue
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Reply #12
« on: August 07, 2008, 09:30:39 AM »
Andarian Offline
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It's interesting that everyone on this forum is expanding on their answers while the same poll on the Bioware forum is just getting the letter answers for each one.   Cheesy

Just for the record, the poll questions do appear to be somewhat NWN1-oriented, especially since the default NWN2 system isn't listed as an option. I suspect that NWN1 is the primary environment that you had in mind, though (please correct me if I'm wrong Smiley).

From the fact that the poll was posted to the NWN1 but not the NWN2 module forum (not to mention who posted it), I think my assumption was probably an accurate one. Wink
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Reply #13
« on: August 07, 2008, 11:36:52 AM »
Tybae Offline
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The above answer is posted from some unknown universe. It is too difficult to decrypt so we can just ignore them!  Tongue

Nah, it's just too difficult for you to decrypt.  Breathing in too much Durian fumes?  Wink
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Reply #14
« on: August 07, 2008, 02:33:52 PM »
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1. B
2. B
3. A
4. A  after 8 in game hours
5. C  immediately and I should choose the class they level in.

Direct and to the point.

Just like Tybae.  Roll Eyes

HAH HAH HAH HAH
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Help is good when asked for,
better when needed.


Neverwinter Reviewers Guild

Gaming Parents Studios
 
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